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C5Alive General Category => C5 Chatroom => Topic started by: alexbromo on 07, November, 2010 - 22:20:08

Title: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: alexbromo on 07, November, 2010 - 22:20:08
Due the poor performances of C5's front brake, one of the first idea i had was fitting a new disk brake.

I seen other guys on the forum who have made very good solution and inspired me.

Today is possible find clamps and rotors for bicycle application, appropriate for C5 at very cheap price, so i bought on Ebay a Promax mechanical clamp and a 140mm rotor (the smallest available) all for 35 Euro of total cost, and both can be installed with no radical mods.

(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6228/c5gj.jpg)

To install the rotor on the wheel, i decided to machine two aluminium circular pieces: an external flange to bolt on the rotor, and a small internal ring to put inside the wheel's hub; these elements will be bolted together using three screws, in a sandwitch configuration with the hub's wall inside.

First of all, i machined the side of the wheel for depth of 15mm, to create the room to place the external flange

(http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/5453/c5hr.jpg)

then I turned twho pieces from an aluminium bar, to realize the flange and the internal ring

(http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/3990/pezzi.jpg)

... two pieces are these quota:

rotor flange:
- external diameter: 55mm
- internal diameter: 33mm
- width: 7.5mm
- #3 holes @120° diam. 4.5mm + 7mm bolt's head housing
- #6 holes for standard ISO six bolts pattern (5x0.8M)

internal flange:
- external diameter: 27mm
- internal diameter: 13mm
- width: 7mm
- #3 threaded holes @120° - 4x0.7M

(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7966/flangia.jpg)

(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2906/flangia1.jpg)

Below the pieces finished:

(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/9937/flangia2.jpg)

... then the internal ring has been cut, to permit to better accommodate in the wheel's hub when screws will be tighten ...

(http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/4855/anellob.jpg)

The ball bearing cup has been filed of 1mm, to permit to reinsert it correctly in to the hub:

(http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/268/cuscinetto.jpg)

... and here the complete kit:

(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/6722/kitm.jpg)

The hub has been holed (#3 at 120°) to permit to get through three screws:

(http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7123/hub.jpg)

Finally was placed the internal ring (using a large bolt to insert it in the wheel), and screwed with the rotors' flange ...

(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/1883/ruota1.jpg)

... then the disk has placed and bolted to the hub.

(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6043/ruota2.jpg)

The group is firmly blocked to the wheel, that is clamped between two aluminum rings.

Next step was to build the clamp's support to the fork I shaped using a piece of 2.5 mm thickness aluminium sheet ...

(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2184/forcad.jpg)

The support was screwed to the fork using a couple of allen screws; i used a pair os special threaded rivets placed using a tool that firmly shots it in the prepared holes:

(http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/518/fork1x.jpg)

... and this is the completed assembly.

(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/6089/completo1.jpg)

 :)

Alex Bromo
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: MikeDX on 07, November, 2010 - 22:29:37
Alex

You should start selling this kit. I would buy two immediately! :)
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: alexbromo on 07, November, 2010 - 22:36:37
Alex

You should start selling this kit. I would buy two immediately! :)

Thank you Mike !  :D

Next day i'll put the mechanical design with quotas of items, if someone should be interested in build it ...

Alex Bromo
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: PLOD11 on 07, November, 2010 - 23:27:10
Brilliant mate, i would have two as well ....

Certainly might have a go next year at doing the same .. 

John
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: aladds on 08, November, 2010 - 00:16:28
Having recently bought a rotor and calliper for exactly this purpose, I think I'll be following a similar set of steps very shortly! :-)

Thanks!
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: Retro Andy on 08, November, 2010 - 05:48:40
Very nice indeed, I would like to be able to do that.

Retro Andy.
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: alexbromo on 08, November, 2010 - 06:54:37
I have not a lot of experience using the lathe, this little work represent my first attempt to build something of useful.

I used a frind's equipment (lathe, precision colum drill and utensils) and i spent many hours to realize it, i guess almost ten times more than a trained worker ... ;D 

The most difficult step for me was in machining the plastic wheel, due the difficult to place firmly in the lathe without damage it; so a couple of times during work it is jumped out  :( ... to solve the problem i turned an alloy cylinder to slip into the hub, so to tighten firmly the chuck around the hub.

Alex Bromo
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: frankev on 08, November, 2010 - 09:54:38
Brilliant work, alexbromo

I wish I had the machinery and the skills to do the same.  :o  I have a spare front wheel, so if anybody is going on the market with this disk brake as a "ready to mount" set, please let me know.

Frank   _o_
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: techytype on 09, November, 2010 - 22:30:21
A cracking bit of engineering, well done.

i wonder to save the wheels hub being turned in a lathe (kit only the lucky few have access to), to allow room for the disk, if stretching the forks as is done when fitting the metal front wheel, will work as well?

the rivets in the forks for the mounting bolts are a very neat solution, the tool is a bit specialised for most, so  i'd guess many would use a welder to add a mounting plate onto the forks - or smile nicely at their local garage mechanic  ;).

i have bought a disk and handlebar lever, intending to fit it to the rear axle, but this gives lots of food for thought.

Alan
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: frankev on 10, November, 2010 - 09:28:49
Hi Alan,

Again I refer to the site of Phil, another forum member.
http://www.cypax.net/projects/c5/blog/page13.php?language=en#ironman.
where he  mounted a disk brake on the rear axle. Don't forget the cover plate on the bottom side to protect the disk from being damaged. It looks real good and solid.
Ps. I wonder about your smile to the local garage guy. Here it would bring me an black eye only.  ;D
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: techytype on 10, November, 2010 - 11:26:39
another top class bit of work done, a different slant on the idea of filling in the 'triangle' with a bit of plate.

Alan
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: alexbromo on 10, November, 2010 - 16:29:37
A cracking bit of engineering, well done.

i wonder to save the wheels hub being turned in a lathe (kit only the lucky few have access to), to allow room for the disk, if stretching the forks as is done when fitting the metal front wheel, will work as well?

the rivets in the forks for the mounting bolts are a very neat solution, the tool is a bit specialised for most, so  i'd guess many would use a welder to add a mounting plate onto the forks - or smile nicely at their local garage mechanic  ;).

i have bought a disk and handlebar lever, intending to fit it to the rear axle, but this gives lots of food for thought.

Alan

I guess not possible to avoid to machine the wheel to implement this solution: to prevent the interferece of the group's internal ring with the ball bearing cup, the rotor's flage is lifted into the hub for a minimum of 17mm; furthermore stretch the forks does not help, because in this configuration all the group must fit in the hub's width.

Welding a steel plate is a good and solid solution. Otherwise, to avoid to welde, should also be possible to build an aluminium plate and secure it to the fork using a couple of robust self-threading screws.

Alex Bromo
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: techytype on 05, December, 2010 - 16:16:11
Hi Alex,

been working on my own design. I'm using a cheap 180mm rota, and also a cheap cable operated ZO0M calliper,

not having the lathe or skills, I've found the rota fits very snugly onto the bearing casing, butting the rota up to the 6 x flat ended wheel splines keeps it 'true'.

I've used 3 rota holes clamping for clamping place, passing long bolt through a 5mm hole in drilled in the webbing, then inserting a nut in the webbing spokes for the bolt.

under breaking there would be a tendency to bend the bolts, the the other three holes are used as 'stoppers'. 5mm high tensile bollt's lock nutted onto the rota so they are held as a kind of spike. a further nut is run onto the end acts as a spacer to fit in between the splines and stop the rota movement on the housing.

just got to mount the caliper now  ;D


Alan

Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: alexbromo on 06, December, 2010 - 13:06:55
Good done Alan !  ;)

I also seen the standard bicycle rotor fit almost perfectly into C5's hub (only little tight), so it is possible to lock it as you done.

You solution is simple and clean, but (as you told) the screws tends to wrap during braking, so i preferred to build a dedicated support for the rotor and use the original screws to mantains short links for axial stress.

Should be very interesting have some picturs to evaluate your "stopper" solution that I did not completely understood.

 :)

Alex Bromo
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: coverman on 07, December, 2010 - 09:00:30
If I have understood your rotor  fitment correctly, then a metal band around  the hub would spread the load sufficiently prevent the srews moving under braking loads.
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: frankev on 07, December, 2010 - 13:06:51
My C5's stop with the original brakes as well. I will try one with an anchor for emergency stops  ;)
I have disk brakes on the front wheel of my bicycle. If I use them I flip over the front wheel. Did happen twice  :'(
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: alexbromo on 07, December, 2010 - 14:07:57
My C5's stop with the original brakes as well. I will try one with an anchor for emergency stops  ;)
I have disk brakes on the front wheel of my bicycle. If I use them I flip over the front wheel. Did happen twice  :'(

Effectively a disk brake is a very strong unit for C5 quotas.

If a normal disk brake is capable to instantly block a 26" bycicle wheel, scared to imagine what it can do on a 12" wheel, where the results of the torque applied by the rotor is virtually double ! In fact i seen that on my C5 also a very little force on the brake lever results in a very strong braking.

I guess the real risk to destroy the little plastic wheel in case of emergency braking ...  :)

Alex Bromo
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: techytype on 07, December, 2010 - 20:00:50
sorry, but i've been busy,

photo's that show what i mean in the link, the rota is a 180mm, but will be shortly changed for a 140mm (received today) to beter allow wheel cowl to be fitted.

http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd454/techetype/Sinclair%20C5/C5FrontBrakecloseupofRotalockingBoltbolt.jpg

Alan
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: techytype on 07, December, 2010 - 20:08:38
I have disk brakes on the front wheel of my bicycle. If I use them I flip over the front wheel. Did happen twice  :'(
original brake is very hit an miss affair, slightly damp and very little effect. disk brake will be like car servo brakes, but if your heavy on the lever the C5 will skid before it stands on it's nose - hopefully  :o

once i've done the back brake perhaps an ABS system will be next?  ;D ;D ;D


Alan
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: alexbromo on 08, December, 2010 - 11:13:55
sorry, but i've been busy,

photo's that show what i mean in the link, the rota is a 180mm, but will be shortly changed for a 140mm (received today) to beter allow wheel cowl to be fitted.

I also chose the 140mm rotor (the littlest bycicles available) to have sufficent room to reinstall the original plastic cover, moreover i had to cut a little piece on the top of the right cover because the cable and clamp's arm slighty interfered on it.

(http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/5809/cover10.jpg)

(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1378/cover3c.jpg)

(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1770/cover2jq.jpg)

Alex Bromo
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: techytype on 08, December, 2010 - 13:19:09
hi alex,

been really good to have someone to compare and bounce idea's off,

i'm part way through mounting the bracket for the brake, mounting mine behind the fork (motor side), the bracket is 'pushing' against the fork when applied, meas it takes less strain and can be a lot thinner.

just for 'jigging' i've used a very simple 'L' bracket for the upper fixing bolt, drilled right though the fork, then nut and bolted bracket to secure it.

i will be making a simple straight strap, with a hole to go on the axle (between wheel and fork), that will then be bolted onto the lower brake fixing.

when happy i'll add photos,i'm lucky as i have a spare chassis and forks with steering rod

regs
Alan
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: frankev on 09, December, 2010 - 22:46:13
I have disk brakes on the front wheel of my bicycle. If I use them I flip over the front wheel. Did happen twice  :'(
original brake is very hit an miss affair, slightly damp and very little effect. disk brake will be like car servo brakes, but if your heavy on the lever the C5 will skid before it stands on it's nose - hopefully  :o

once i've done the back brake perhaps an ABS system will be next?  ;D ;D ;D


Alan
this ABS thingy, I go check to that out. If it works on a car with 12 volts it can be useful for a sinclair C5 as well.  :P
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: alexbromo on 10, December, 2010 - 09:01:15
hi alex,

been really good to have someone to compare and bounce idea's off,

i'm part way through mounting the bracket for the brake, mounting mine behind the fork (motor side), the bracket is 'pushing' against the fork when applied, meas it takes less strain and can be a lot thinner.

just for 'jigging' i've used a very simple 'L' bracket for the upper fixing bolt, drilled right though the fork, then nut and bolted bracket to secure it.

i will be making a simple straight strap, with a hole to go on the axle (between wheel and fork), that will then be bolted onto the lower brake fixing.

when happy i'll add photos,i'm lucky as i have a spare chassis and forks with steering rod

regs
Alan

Very interesting solution Alan !  ;)

What kind of material have you used to build the bracket ?

Alex Bromo
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: techytype on 10, December, 2010 - 09:25:28
So far just proto typing on some spare forks,
I'm attaching upper mount with a simple  L bracket, drilling through the fork leg from to back, lower hole will be a straight strap either to go over axle between wheel and fork, or bolted on the inner 'face' of the leg.

As my caliper is dragged toward the fork in use, it allows thinner material, if one should break or i loose a bolt then it will be stopped by the fork, sort of extra safety designed in.

Been working on designs for rear break, that will be IMHO very radical. Si watch this space ;).

Alan
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: quasimodo on 05, January, 2011 - 20:20:17
Love this! Nicely done!

I will fit mine with a disc-brake too. Will probably need some good stopping power with my new 750W-24V motor fitted.

Greetz
www.sinclairc5.nl


Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: techytype on 05, January, 2011 - 20:51:53
Been all stop due to Xmas season and snow, but hope to get back on ti it this weekend, if my son don't need help to move out that is (waiting for date from agents).

Alan
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: Retro Andy on 06, January, 2011 - 06:09:20
Wow that motor looks the business  :)

Retro Andy.


Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: techytype on 06, January, 2011 - 08:02:39
Love this! Nicely done!

I will fit mine with a disc-brake too. Will probably need some good stopping power with my new 750W-24V motor fitted.

Greetz
www.sinclairc5.nl



Pictures and details please (so we can lech then :) ).

Regs
Alan
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: quasimodo on 06, January, 2011 - 21:29:35
Of course I will put all details on my blog.

I hope my frame will be ready tomorrow, so I can start the build.
First steps:
- Mount the motor
- New Ball Bearing for the steering and the front fork
- Install necessary wiring and computer.
- Upload Pictures !!!

Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: frankev on 06, January, 2011 - 22:48:26
Hi Quasimodo,

Did you read the reply I left, concerning the Dutch law for E-Bikes on your topic about your 750watts 24v project topic. I don't aspect much trouble for you unless you start doing wheelies on the road.  :D :D
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: quasimodo on 07, January, 2011 - 14:31:52
Hi Frankev, I read your reply and replied also (on my own blog) :-)

Thanx again. I also don't expect getting into trouble too much, but I am planning to make it faster, being able to run a few more miles and getting it road-lega. So I'm especially interested in how te get the faster version streetlegal.

Already had some contact with the RDW in the Netherlands, but no news yet.

Did receive my frame from powdercoating today and it looks great!! This weekend I will build-up the new motor to see if it all fits the way it should. . . . .  :-) Will post pictures later!!
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: frankev on 07, January, 2011 - 14:56:44
Je hebt gereageerd op je Blog?
Ik weet niet hoe je dat kan zien of welke link je dan moet volgen.
Met de RDW krijg je een hoop gedoe. Helm op, verzekering etc. suc6.

You Responded on your Blog?
I am afraid I can't see that, or I just don't know how to get there, what link to follow.
With the RDW you get a lot of trouble to get it road legal. Helmet on, Insurance plate etc. success!

For the british readers, I thought I'll give you a free course in Dutch at the same time.
So you can tell your wife that you can learn things on the forum as well if she is nagging
" >:( are you on this forum again? Don't you have better things to do with your time! etc."
 ;) :D ;D

Frank
Title: Re: Fitting a front disk brake ...
Post by: quasimodo on 08, January, 2011 - 10:27:14
In my blog I will post new information when available. Under the post, everybody has the possibility to place a reaction and also read all other reaction.

Seen my new pictures?

greetz !