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C5Alive General Category => C5 Chatroom => Topic started by: danny7147 on 05, January, 2013 - 13:16:01

Title: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 05, January, 2013 - 13:16:01
Agreed, if I had a hundred indicator sets I could retire lol! I'm quite well known in vintage bicycle circles and when I first started out it amazed me just how much people would spend. Rod brake set? Average Joe (mainly Americans) would pay silly money. It's not uncommon for sets to sell on Ebay for £30 plus, but to an American you can double that. The real irony was that in India they still make rod brake bikes to vintage English specs and with the help of an Indian friend I now pay around £5. The same goes for cranks, tyres, wheels, seat posts and even handlebars. Sure, to the purist they may be a slightly shinier metal etc, but for practicality purposes I'm always looking for alternatives ;-) The C5's irritating in that much of it was custom made, but I do know of companies in India that are fully geared up to replicate virtually anything and at a cost that would make your head spin mainly due to low wages and taxes. I'm really wondering if it would be worth approaching a couple of them to see what they'd charge to duplicate a few things like wheel trims and indicators. Again, to the C5 purist they'd turn in their graves, but a sudden supply of indicator sets that actually fit and cost 30 quid a set would surely solve a part of the demand problem?
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: KarlG on 05, January, 2013 - 13:57:01
Hi Danny,

as the old saying goes, nothing ventured nothing gained.

Only problem is just how many people realy want original or repo indicator sets?
I bet you would have a problem to sell 50 sets, and I don't think you could order 50 at under £50 each, maybe a 100 or so. Can you lay out this kind of cash?

But as I said NVNG.  8)
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 05, January, 2013 - 14:27:32
To be honest, the indicators are one of the trickiest. People will always pay a premium for originality... I once sold a pair of Hercules pedals for £457 on Ebay for the simple reason that they had Hercules embossed into the rubber! I agree though that repro will always fetch less but my big problem is the amount of C5 shells we see with holes drilled yet no lights, so maybe a much cheaper option is available. A vacform pair of plastic lenses, although looking nowhere near original or authentic, would cost a tiny amount to produce, would fit, and would at least give people a cheap option to have a way of having something to cover the holes. Moulds and production would be easy for that, but would there be a market? With vacform they could technically be produced for under 5 quid a pair... But the question is, given the option of a fiver for a vacform set or 200 for an original set, which would most people opt for?
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: KarlG on 05, January, 2013 - 15:21:55
Hi Danny,

I think you under estimate the production costs. Yes they can be produced at a fiver, for lenses but not for a set, there's a lot more to a set than the lenses. Plus the cost of packing, transport, insurance, import duty etc. You can get the cost right down with an order of 5k or so but not with 50 or 100. Material cost is low but the molds and tools would be a lot higher.

If you look here http://c5alive.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2347.msg19535.html#msg19535 (http://c5alive.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2347.msg19535.html#msg19535) you will find that this subject has been covered.

As pointed out therein, there are problems with vacforming
Quote
I can vacuum form a set but that does not let you replicate the lines that are on the inside of the lens to diffuse the light.

EDIT: Forgot to say, if you can produce a good reproduction at a reasonable price put my name down for a set.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 05, January, 2013 - 16:19:56
I'll make this my spring project when I have more time lol :-) I've had quite a bit of experience with vacforming, it wouldn't be an import job, it's the sort of thing that I can easily have made locally, or even at the local college who have a machine. I can make a mould easily... It's unlikely to be identical to the originals, but as I said, they'd just be a cheap option to have indicators rather than a direct replacement. The way I see it, they'd be fairly rectangular leaving the buyer to cut to fit but with two recessed screw holes aligned with the originals. Valid point about the diffuser though! I've used clear plastic, and translucent/frosted, so first step would be to see if a frosted orange plastic is available as that would solve a big part of the problem. But... Do you think there'd be any market?
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: MattC5 on 05, January, 2013 - 18:31:19
As the front ones can be matched with Landrover ones I think if you did a good job on a similar looking rear ones they would sell - At the moment if you have them fitted and you damage them you are stuffed ! - Front and rear lights are another hard to source item  ;)
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: Punjanaman on 07, January, 2013 - 12:52:44
On the subject of vacforming....don't know if any of you seen it but on the discovery channel over Christmas i was watching a restoration program...for the life of me i can't remember which one  ...could have been American Restoration...ANYWAY  point is he had to make a new light lens that was unobtainable...he made the new one with "a moulding kit" which i have never seen before.It consisted of a liquid plastic which was used for the male and female moulds and when cured he poured in a coloured (orange) resin for the light lens...when cured the lens appeared to be very good quality....has anyone heard of this kit ???
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 07, January, 2013 - 13:55:25
A search finds.... It's actually very possible! I've found kits, but so far I've only found clear plastics in America. The program you watched by the way was about a 30's Packard with a cracked rear light. I'm going to research this more, but on the outset it certainly seems dashble to reproduce the lenses. Actual cost of the plastic and kits isn't too bad and, as an estimate if I could do it, a rear lens could in theory be sold for about £35 taking into account time and costs etc and a small profit. The front lens would proud tricky eve to the inside of it, but again, let me research this a bit. Well remembered :-)
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: KarlG on 07, January, 2013 - 14:51:47
In modelling I have used liquid silicon mould which was sold in large 10 litre cans, looked like milk with a consistency just over that of milk. I have only used it for very small items, but I know of people who have used it for large molds for 15cm chess pieces. I have no idea if this is suitable for items that need a male/female mould. The last time I tried to buy the stuff, about 25 years ago, the shop informed me that due to low demand they no longer stocked it, up to date I have never be able to track down a supplier

As you can imagine the material, when set, wasn't solid but quite flexible, much the same as sealer silicon. I had to be very careful with complicated parts as the mould material would rip quite easily, but with something like a lens, if well waxed and polished, it would work quite well, plus all the fine detail is reproduced.

EDIT: This theme should me moved to a dedicated subject.
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: KarlG on 07, January, 2013 - 16:45:30
I think there is no point in trying to reproduce the repeaters as they can be obtained from old/new stock BMC/Leyland parts.

As far as the rear indicators are concerned I have a suggestion.

The silicon material that I used and mentioned in another post is readily available under the name 'Silicon Rubber', this can be found in the IN. This material is fantastic when it comes to reproducing very fine detail, such as the inner diffuser surface of the lens.

Have a look at this, and many more, in YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADXlUIkdqHc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADXlUIkdqHc)

The lens could be cast, with a very slow setting hardener, using epoxy resin mixed with transparent orange colouring. The slower the setting time the lower the heat produced, resulting in a longer mould life. It may take a bit of experimenting with the colour mix, what the hell NVNG.  ;) ;)
Epoxy is unfortunately not all that cheap.  :(

Of course you could always melt down some old orange lenses, but I don't think the mold would like it.  ;D ;D ;D

This way you can make an exact reproduction of the original lens, plus the cost would be quite reasonable if more than 20 sets were produced.

I would have no hesitation at having a shot at doing this,  the only trouble I have no original to copy, there is not a big enough market on this side of the ditch, plus the high price of shipping from here to the UK, and last but not least, too many irons in the fire.
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 07, January, 2013 - 17:02:12
Latest is that I called a really nice guy earlier from easycomposites.co.uk and he's told me it's possible to do rear lights, lenses and pretty much mostly other parts too. It's very cost effective too! In his words they will be indistinguishabl from the originals.

And the best part? He's a C5 owner, knows about this forum and will write us a guide on exactly how to do it! How coincidental is that?!

In terms of cost, I'm not telling you because if I do manage to do this I'm not letting on my profit margin :p It's easily possible, and relatively cheap BUT takes a fair amount of time :)
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: kamilb1998 on 07, January, 2013 - 20:55:08
Latest is that I called a really nice guy earlier from easycomposites.co.uk and he's told me it's possible to do rear lights, lenses and pretty much mostly other parts too. It's very cost effective too! In his words they will be indistinguishabl from the originals.

And the best part? He's a C5 owner, knows about this forum and will write us a guide on exactly how to do it! How coincidental is that?!


I look forward to seeing what he can come up with!
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: kamilb1998 on 07, January, 2013 - 21:15:45
I have 'split' the thread from which these comments originated to two different ones to keep things on subject.
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: KarlG on 07, January, 2013 - 22:56:37
And now have two sections on the same theme.
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: kamilb1998 on 07, January, 2013 - 23:13:33
Is this better? Best I can do.
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 08, January, 2013 - 07:09:50
Nice job Kamil! Karl, going back to what you were saying, I can definately get the resin to mould in clear, it's the colour that is the problem. The guy I spoke to said that the best dye to use is to mix in ink from red biro pens. Orange I don't know yet, and that would take a lot of pens for each rear lens! The actual moulding and producing part is not a problem. On that basis, one step at a time etc, I think the one I'll try first is having a go at reproducing the front light lens on the basis it doesn't need colouring. The only thing is that I've never taken my headlight unit out, does anyone know if they're a sealed unit or if the lens is seperate? If it's a sealed unit I'll have to try a different lens instead.
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: KarlG on 08, January, 2013 - 09:03:10
Hi Danny,

it's a sealed unit, plus I'm not sure if resin is suitable for this job.

I'll have a look and see if I can find a suitable material for the transparent colour, up till now I've only used full pigment.
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 08, January, 2013 - 09:17:23
I think it's actually an epoxy resin, he did say that it's used to make light lenses, but see what you can find :) I'll definitely have a try either way.
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: KarlG on 08, January, 2013 - 13:10:58
Epoxy tends to soften when heated, but please don't ask me at what temperature
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 08, January, 2013 - 13:22:35
You're determined for this not to be possible aren't you ;-) I just think for the relatively small amount of money it will cost to try, and the assurance of the company that people use it to mould lights it has to be worth a try. It's known as 'casting resin', it's clear, other than that I have no idea but I'll get a starter kit and learn. If it works, great, we have a supply of lenses, if not, I can still duplicate smaller items so no loss.
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: KarlG on 08, January, 2013 - 14:36:23
Hi Danny,

I think you'll find the term is 'Killjoy'. THATS ME.  ;D ;D ;D

Quote
The guy I spoke to said that the best dye to use is to mix in ink from red biro pens.
????? And this is an expert?????

Concerning the transparent colouring you can kick the Biro pen idea out of the window. Have a look at these

http://www.cooksongold.com/category_select.jsp?query=epoxy+tranparent+orange (http://www.cooksongold.com/category_select.jsp?query=epoxy+tranparent+orange)
Go to the bottom of the page.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091126073219AAOYEpq (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091126073219AAOYEpq)
http://www.eagerplastics.com/7701.htm (http://www.eagerplastics.com/7701.htm)
This is from the States but is only shown as an example of what can be achieved. Look at second photo.

So the material is available. I haven't checked all the suppliers, just enough to keep the ball rolling.
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 08, January, 2013 - 16:03:03
I can feel a bet coming on  ::)
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: KarlG on 08, January, 2013 - 16:15:04
Me too, but I bet it's not the same bet.  8) 8)
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 08, January, 2013 - 16:29:21
Here's the deal, when I get time, probably in slightly over a month, I'll order a kit and do a repro lens. My back lens is cracked and don't  indicators so it May not be a C5 lens, but when I' 've made  couple I'll send you and Booboo one each to see what you think of the quality/accuracy. If it works, great, we'll find a way for me to do the C5 lenses... if not, we'll look into other sources and options.

Sound a good deal? I'm determined to reproduce lenses ;)
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: KarlG on 08, January, 2013 - 16:42:33
Hi Danny,

no need to send me a lens, I don't even have an original . I'm sure just sending one to Karl (not this Karl, I mean that Karl)  ::) would be sufficient.

Anyway good luck with the experimenting.
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 08, January, 2013 - 16:49:35
Let's just wait an see :) £60 for the kit is worth the risk!
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: KarlG on 08, January, 2013 - 16:59:26
My favourite saying is NVNG. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

I don't know about your financial situation, but for me it would be a bit of a load. The only thing stopping me is no original lens, and as your signature goes 'So many projects, so little time!!!'.
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 08, January, 2013 - 17:04:19
Well, financially it's a small risk of course, but my wife's been after doing something with her time so if it works it'll give her something to do  ;)

There are so many parts for things that are almost impossible to find now... I still need a rear lens for the moped I restored! It's going to be interesting to see if it works, but as I said at the beginning, imagine if there was a supply of C5 parts, just how many would be saved from being stripped etc, so let's see :)
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 13, January, 2013 - 14:03:11
Project number 1, because it's by far the easiest, is going to be making a high viz mast. I'm going to do copies of the plastic 'flag' and source some correct size metal tubing, but does anyone know where I can source some reflective stickers or tape to do the red and white on it?
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: Lancealot on 13, January, 2013 - 14:21:27
Hi tubing is from B&Q cut in half and sprayed dark grey, then widened out at the bottom by black insulation tape to widen it to fit the mast hole. reflective tape is 'High intensity reflective tape' ebay cut to shape.

Lance
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 13, January, 2013 - 15:44:00
Found the tape, I'm not too sure how I'm going to be able to cut it to shape yet but we'll see! Is there some mechanically minded genius with a caliper on here that can do a measurement of the inside and outside diameters of the tube for me?
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: C5 ENTHUSIAST + RESTORER on 13, January, 2013 - 16:18:25
Hi there check out this topic of mine .

http://c5alive.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1913.0     
 
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 13, January, 2013 - 16:53:13
Nice work! How did you do the plastic part? It doesn't look cast?
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: Luke S on 13, January, 2013 - 17:08:55
Nice work! How did you do the plastic part? It doesn't look cast?

Probably the same way he dose the mud flaps
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 13, January, 2013 - 17:30:17
I was thinking that, but then he's got the two plugs on the bottom of it that go into the poles which is a really clever thing to build into it!
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 14, January, 2013 - 10:31:54
Parts are ordered! The flags will be made out of white polyurethane with a bit of black pigment to make them grey. They may be a lighter grey than the originals but will look identical. For the poles I was thinking about grey plastic tubing, that would mean I could sell sets for around £12. Metal poles, with the cost of painting etc would be over 20. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: kamilb1998 on 14, January, 2013 - 17:19:36
Parts are ordered! The flags will be made out of white polyurethane with a bit of black pigment to make them grey. They may be a lighter grey than the originals but will look identical. For the poles I was thinking about grey plastic tubing, that would mean I could sell sets for around £12. Metal poles, with the cost of painting etc would be over 20. Thoughts?

Considering that a new, boxed mast goes for around £55, that is fantastic value for money. A little too cheap perhaps?
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 14, January, 2013 - 17:34:31
Maybe £15 including poles, but any higher would defeat the object of having a new cheap parts supply, and I'll make a profit too lol :-)
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 14, January, 2013 - 18:13:21
What's the going price for a headlight and rear light now? I'm trying to work out how much I can do them for and if they'll work out cheaper than real ones...
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: kamilb1998 on 14, January, 2013 - 18:34:27
What's the going price for a headlight and rear light now? I'm trying to work out how much I can do them for and if they'll work out cheaper than real ones...

Around £40 - £60 usually, but they are very difficult to find for sale in good condition.
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: Luke S on 14, January, 2013 - 18:35:00
What's the going price for a headlight and rear light now? I'm trying to work out how much I can do them for and if they'll work out cheaper than real ones...

Front lights I think are about £45 to £50 and rear lights are about £20 to £25. I may be wrong but may be someone else can give you a better answer 
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: Luke S on 14, January, 2013 - 18:41:58
Rear lights are more common than front lights that why the price difference is big
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 14, January, 2013 - 18:55:55
Typical, front lights are harder to make ;-) Well once moulded the rear lights would be about £12 again, but front's tricky as it's in two plastics and the inside's fairly complicated, but should be able to do a pretty good copy for about £20 to £25. I'll start work on those once I've done the hi viz. Should have the first test one made on sunday if it all goes to plan!
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: Luke S on 14, January, 2013 - 19:40:59
Typical, front lights are harder to make ;-) Well once moulded the rear lights would be about £12 again, but front's tricky as it's in two plastics and the inside's fairly complicated, but should be able to do a pretty good copy for about £20 to £25. I'll start work on those once I've done the hi viz. Should have the first test one made on sunday if it all goes to plan!

Can't wait to see them  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 14, January, 2013 - 20:01:13
They should be good, but I'm looking forward to trying the indicators most! I should be able to do a set of four lenses for £20 pretty easily, but of course wouldn't come with any wiring. The only bit I don't think I can do is the centre caps, but I'll work on the lenses first lol :-)
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: Luke S on 14, January, 2013 - 20:06:10
It's a good project to try  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: danny7147 on 14, January, 2013 - 23:26:03
Found the perfect reflector stickers tonight! They're white and red, and even have the honeycomb pattern that's on the originals so fingers crossed the high viz masts should end up looking really good! Just need to figure out the poles now...
Title: Re: Reproducing Indicator Lights.
Post by: Luke S on 15, January, 2013 - 16:07:29
Good luck with them ;) ;)