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C5Alive General Category => C5 Chatroom => Topic started by: KarlG on 17, October, 2012 - 15:33:16

Title: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 17, October, 2012 - 15:33:16
If you check my 'Personal Text' I think you'll agree with me.  :P

I've come up with this crazy idea how to increase the range of my C5 using electric power, but not discharging the battery. All this and remaining within the EU regs.

I have a Honda GX22 (22cc) engine rated at, IIRC,  .7kW languishing in the cellar, I was going to use this in a model aircraft, but the powers to be stopped all flying at the old airfield. Now if I mounted this engine in a trailer, coupled up to a generator, and a charging controller, I could charge the battery at a higher rate than the discharge.  ::)  Even the battery could be removed, and seeing that the motor weighs a fraction of the battery weight it's a win win configuration.  8)

The idea of mounting the motor in the rear of the C5 doesn't tickle me in the least, heat, space etc, and most of the cops would assume that it's direct drive.

Just an idea, but I might just try it out one of these days.  ;)

EDIT: Sorry I cheated somewhat with the title, to meet the EU regs. you must peddle. Ever so slowly.  ;)
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: coverman on 18, October, 2012 - 09:36:48
The drag of the trailer won't help efficiency.Why go to all this trouble anyway? A car is so much more comfortable and safe.
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: Karl on 18, October, 2012 - 11:30:22
coverman -  why so negative all the time mate ?  ::)

The Sinclair c5 is not the best vehicle ever created, we all know that, but it has an element of fun that certainly keeps me amused. There are cheaper and better ways of getting about , sure , but smiles per mile it is really hard to beat  ;).

I fully encourage any form of madcap or bizarre idea that improves (or even worsens !) the original design. Who cares if it works out ok or not - just give it a go and enjoy the learning curve  ;D.

ElectricDave and I have had so much fun with the c-5000 and Challenger projects we wouldnt change that for the world  :P.

I say to KarlG  "Go for it" and let us know how you get on  8)   
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 18, October, 2012 - 13:37:51
@coverman
Please read the first line of my post, had I found a tongue in cheek smiley I would have used it.  :)

I'm a pensioner with a somewhat meager pension, I don't have a car and have refused to use one in the last twenty years. I calculated what it cost me in upkeep, insurance, tax, etc., and came to the conclusion that a taxi or public transport was much cheaper. I don't know what the parking is like in the area that you live in, but in Munich (about the only place I used a car for) parking is very expensive that is IF you can find a parking space, and parking houses are almost totally booked out by commuters. I have a scooter, a bike, and a dog, the scooter was only used three times in the last two years. Come to think of it I don't use the dog much either.  ;D

I'll be building a lightweight trailer to cart my RC aircraft and dog (7 Kg) to the nearest flying club. I have two wheels from a wheelchair plus the half shafts, the tyres and tubes are designed for low rolling resistance and very high pressures. Yes there will be a very small loss of power, so what, I don't intend to use the motor on the flat. Plus if I ever do fit a generator, I can use it to charge my batteries, on site, for my models.  8)

I use my bike in all weathers the whole year round, this keeps me fit. The C5 is for some fun, that is when the weather is suitable, as I don't intend to sit at home and twiddle my thumbs.
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: mhurt on 18, October, 2012 - 15:07:27
I have to say that I'm intrigued. I'd assume the proposed method would be legal in the UK, as you wouldn't be powering the C5 itself from a petrol engine, just recharging the battery.... (although, trying to explain the difference to the local plods could be a challenge).

I've never actually come close to getting low battery (I use a 76AH leisure battery), but I'd love to hear how you get on, if you do try it :)
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 18, October, 2012 - 19:07:24
Your terminology "explain the difference to the local plods"  made me smile. Here in Germany the cops are refered to as 'The Bulls'. Now if I had the engine mounted in the back of the C5 with a visable exhaust, wouldn't this be like waving a red flag at a bull?  ::)
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: kamilb1998 on 18, October, 2012 - 21:12:53
In theory, this sounds like a great idea. If it works out for you, I wouldn't mind doing something similar myself.

Roughly how big is this 22cc engine you speak of?
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 18, October, 2012 - 23:12:14
Honda GX22 4 stroke OHC engine.

I'm not too sure but I think the GX22/32 (22/32cc) are no longer being produced, IIRC the GX25 is the replacement. I found a company in the UK that were selling them very cheap (in the mean time price has risen) but wouldn't deliver to Germany. Take care there are many versions of this engine, the main ones are horizontal (bush trimmers etc.) and vertical (lawn mowers etc.).
 
As far as size is concerned I would need to dig around in the cellar to find out, but you can have an inkling if you look at 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BPix-EWVhw&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BPix-EWVhw&feature=relmfu)
 
While looking at the above link I found this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=0-F3Omh9Wgw&feature=endscreen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=0-F3Omh9Wgw&feature=endscreen)
 
It's after midnight local time, so I'll expand on this subject tomorrow, sorry later today.  :)
 
Cheers.   KarlG.

EDIT: Change is marked in red. I did correct this point some time back but must have forgotten to send.  :-[
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: coverman on 19, October, 2012 - 10:19:04
I think you will find that the vehicle would be classified as petrol-electric. It is basically how the Chevrolet Volt operates.
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 19, October, 2012 - 13:34:30
How can you classify a vehicle as petrol-electric if the vehicle has no petrol engine, or alternatively no electric motor?
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: baselpat on 19, October, 2012 - 22:33:40
I would guess one of the main issues of how it is classed and defined as legal would be the fact it is carrying a fuel for a running engine?  That said, I would still love to see it in action even if not on a public road.....  ::)
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 19, October, 2012 - 23:23:05
Sorry wrong answer, the C5 is carrying no petrol, that's in the trailer.   ;) 

The C5 is an electric powered bike, the trailer is a vehicle but is not powered.
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: kamilb1998 on 20, October, 2012 - 09:53:13
I would guess one of the main issues of how it is classed and defined as legal would be the fact it is carrying a fuel for a running engine?  That said, I would still love to see it in action even if not on a public road.....  ::)

Surely if it's simply carrying the engine as a generator for a battery that is not connected up the the drivetrain, there shouldn't be a problem with it?
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 20, October, 2012 - 12:54:52
I can't think of any reason why there should be a problem, other than it would need a silencer. I couldn't find anything in the EU regs. that would ban this configuration.

If the boot's removed I would think there would be enough space for a motor and generator. But, what about the all up weight? Take the battery out?  ::)  I would like to retain the boot for occasions when the trailer is not used.

I want a trailer regardless of the M/G requirement, so why not make the M/G as a unit that can be installed or removed at will.
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: Dave.76 on 20, October, 2012 - 13:27:00
I'm with Boo Boo on this one. I think it sounds a great Idea and worth trying :). I can't see there is much to lose as you want to make a trailer anyway. Good luck with it and keep us posted please.
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 20, October, 2012 - 21:41:59
@ kamilb1998

Engine sizes are height with tank 26cm, carb. side 23cm, from pull starter to drive output 21cm.

As mentioned before, I found new GX22s for sale in the UK, at this time (about 1 year ago) they were £75, now they are £115. the WP is
www.seddondirect.co.uk/productDetails.asp?productID=370 (http://www.seddondirect.co.uk/productDetails.asp?productID=370)

BUT, I would not recommend buying one from them, as the engines are only equipped with a centrifugal clutch and no output drive. Finding a drive like this is like looking for hen's teeth, as they are no longer produced. I did read that Honda insisted that the clutch was necessary, as I was going to use it in an aircraft driving a prop. the clutch was not needed. Now I need the drive shaft.  :(

Any engine powered grass/bush trimmer (strimmer)  would be suitable, they are fitted with a long drive shaft and case. Both of these can be shortened to your requirement. I'm not too sure but I should imagine that a chain saw motor would have a much larger cubic capacity.

At this time of year second hand units should be going cheap, so strike so long the iron's cold.  ;)

Edit: Look at this item in eBay.co.uk.  The silver drive shaft shown in the third photo is part that I (or you will) need. This can be shortened for connection to a generator.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-4-Stroke-Strimmer-Only-Used-For-1-Day-/110965966907?pt=UK_Home_Garden_GardenPowerTools_CA&hash=item19d616483b (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-4-Stroke-Strimmer-Only-Used-For-1-Day-/110965966907?pt=UK_Home_Garden_GardenPowerTools_CA&hash=item19d616483b)
This would do just as well, except it's a 2 stroker.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ryobi-RLT26HT-Petrol-26cc-Strimmer-Hedge-Cutter-Pack-/230861100013?_trksid=p2047675.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D555001%26algo%3DPW.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D29%26meid%3D2883137566203952842%26pid%3D100009%26prg%3D1013%26rk%3D2%26sd%3D110965966907%26 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ryobi-RLT26HT-Petrol-26cc-Strimmer-Hedge-Cutter-Pack-/230861100013?_trksid=p2047675.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D555001%26algo%3DPW.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D29%26meid%3D2883137566203952842%26pid%3D100009%26prg%3D1013%26rk%3D2%26sd%3D110965966907%26)
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: Karl on 21, October, 2012 - 10:29:17
A Sinclair C5 "hybrid" appeared on our Bournemouth run in 2007 ;

http://current.com/items/88575581/sinclair_c5_coast_run.htm

..it had been made using components from a mobility scooter to give hand controls that were above the legs (did away with the under leg handlebars) but also had an onboard generator to keep the battery topped up. Sounds similar to what you have in mind.

If you view the video clip (see link above) at minute 04:24, 06:10 , 06:36 and 09:49 you can see a brief glimpse of the vehicle . Shame we didn't take any more details at the time.
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 21, October, 2012 - 13:57:16
You're correct it's a hybrid, but I tend to shy away from this term, at least here in Germany. This is also one of the reasons for placing the generator in a trailer. If the unit was integrated into the C5 there is a possibility that the "Bulls" or the TÜV (MoT) come to the conclusion that if it's a hybrid then it's no longer a bike but a car, after all we've never heard of a hybrid bike.   :-\  As a car they have no documentation covering the C5, so the only solution would be to ban it.

I once tried to obtain an operational permit for my Piper P2 from the TÜV, they informed me it would cost a minimum of 15,000 Marks. At that time you could buy a Mini for 5,000, or an E-Type for 18,000.    :o  So I'm not even going to try to obtain a permit for the C5. One other problem in Germany is that each State has it's own TÜV and they are not unified, they make up their own regs. E.g. in Bavaria 6" wide wheels are not permitted on a (old) Mini, in Baden Würtenberg they are. Net result the Bavarians go over the border and have their wheels registered there, absolute nuts.  :o
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: coverman on 22, October, 2012 - 09:51:15
If the trailer mounted generator is wired to the battery in the C5 then it is a petrol electric vehicle
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 22, October, 2012 - 12:23:51
I'm not worried about how you classify it, I'm only worried about how the powers to be here classify it. Regulations here are not the same as the regs. in the UK, I wish they were.  :(  Since there is no EU reg. covering the subject I come under the national regs.

Anyway it's something I don't need to worry about for quite some time, without a road going C5 it's neither here nor there.  :)
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: mhurt on 22, October, 2012 - 12:36:35
It's still an interesting subject, even if it's only hypothetical.
I've actually emailed the DVLA here to ask for their opinion (out of pure curiosity).
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 22, October, 2012 - 12:56:52
Please let me know what the outcome is.

I know I can't use their opinion  here, but I might be able to use it as a bluff.  ;)

It's still my opinion that the configuration remains within the EU regs. It might be a good idea to approach the EU authorities as it's their say that counts in all of the EU countries.
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 22, October, 2012 - 16:14:33
Nothing's new under the sun

Look here: http://c5alive.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1403.0.html (http://c5alive.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1403.0.html)

Just wondering why no one else came up with this link.  :o
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: mhurt on 22, October, 2012 - 17:01:22
Two completely different ideas, that's why :p
Chas's was both electric AND petrol drive, not electric drive only with an engine acting as a generator/charge :)
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 22, October, 2012 - 20:03:12
Thanks. My mistake.  :-[
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: fezza_rs on 14, November, 2012 - 12:18:08
http://www.totalgardens.co.uk/Kipor-IG-770-Silent-Camping-Generator-PS13471.html

Something like that in your trailer and a cheap battery charger would do the trick!
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 14, November, 2012 - 12:38:21
Hi,  I've found 12v generators (new), much the same as the one in your link, at around £150.

It was just the idea and the challenge, plus the engine in the cellar. I have too many irons in the fire at the moment to even think of starting such a project.

Funny receiving your post today as I almost sent you an email yesterday evening.

Cheers.  KarlG.
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: mhurt on 14, November, 2012 - 12:41:54
I still haven't had any reply on the legality of such an idea from the DVLA/VOSA yet :(
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 14, November, 2012 - 13:09:02
Their reply will probably be a white waggon with blue flashing lights and a red cross on the sides. There will be two very friendly men bringing you a nice present of a jacket.  ;D

Jocking aside, they may think it's a loony question and that you are a prankster trying to waste their time. I find the best way is to send a second email, and at the top, in upper case and bold, a title to the effect that this is your second request. If you still receive no answer after a couple of weeks, THIRD REQUEST and so on.

It could also be that they have no data for such a case, and no one is prepared to stick their neck out and end up with an unwanted Presidential  Case.
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: mhurt on 14, November, 2012 - 13:18:24
Heh, I did actually put in the email that it wasn't a crank email, as when I read it before sending I realised how daft it actually sounded :)
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: fezza_rs on 16, November, 2012 - 11:29:51

Funny receiving your post today as I almost sent you an email yesterday evening.

Cheers.  KarlG.

??
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: KarlG on 16, November, 2012 - 11:41:54
There was something in one of your posts I wanted to ask you about, I got myself sidetracked with other posts then couldn't remember what it was I was going to ask you about.  :-\

It'll pop up again, I hope. ::)
Title: Re: C5 with 100 mile range, no battery, no peddling.
Post by: fezza_rs on 17, November, 2012 - 21:55:14
Lol I do that regular!