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Author Topic: Motor not working control box had new R1 & D1 fitted but relay not working  (Read 8093 times)

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Offline mr-c5

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Moved this here from another post where it was developing into it's own post. ( http://c5alive.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3643.15.html ) Thanks all that have helped so far, appreciated. If solved it might help others another day.

In summary I replaced FS2 fuse in control box that was blown as nothing working on a C5 I bought except lights indicators and horn. The motor is not working and I've tried directly connecting it up but nothing although when I first tried this earlier last week I got a couple sparks and a twitch but no real motion. I'm having difficulty checking brushes as suggested so will dismantle in the week and clean it and have a look, assume that is an okay job.

Pod was not illuminating but the battery low buzzer went off after a few mins of connection. So with a little help reading posts and bending the ear of C5Mick who was on FB and been very helpful I've replaced R1 and D1 on the control board. The pod now illuminates (yay!) but the battery low buzzer still goes off after few minutes and the battery led's extinguish one by one before that happens. The relay for the motor isn't activating which means it certainly wont go even if the motor gets sorted.

There is 12v at X12 when button pressed, relay works in isolation, X1 to X13 no continuity X1 to shunt has continuity, no voltage at R10 is detected (c5mick says it should be 3.7v, thanks Mick) I tried the pod on my working C5 and it seems to work okay. So something is preventing the relay from activating. I'm sure it clicked when I replaced the fuse but I have had the board out and replaced the two items mentioned so it's been disturbed as it were. TR3 has been suggested as possible failure so could get one to replace that though i'm told its a tricky one to do and to be careful with the heat, hoping to test that tomorrow if it's possible to do.

Mark


Offline radiomarty

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Hi Mark - take a look inside the pod - check the condition of the soldered joints on the connector also the condition of R21 which is often burnt out - once the motor is up and running let us know what the pod lights do when the button is pressed.Also worth giving the red harness a wiggle in the control box as it may have a loose connection which would explain why the relay has stopped clicking - Regards Marty
« Last Edit: 02, February, 2015 - 05:32:53 by radiomarty »

Offline KarlG

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Hi Mark,

the CB is the labourer and the pod is the brain of the C5. The CB will only work if all the parameters from the CB are correct and the pod gives the OK signal. You mention that after changing the fuse the motor kicked in shortly, this indicates that TR3 is OK. The voltage that C5mick mentioned originates from the ULA in the pod and activates TR3, and this signal will only be given if all the other parameters are correct.

From your description four things are suspect.

1) The condition of your battery.
2) The op-amp. This measures the battery level and current being consumed. If these are not correct you get no start signal.
3) The ULA. It may be on the way out.
4) The harness between the CB and the pod.

Firstly I would remove the pod, knock it left then right towards you, you may have to use a lot of force, until it pops out. Remove the harness and check that the pins are straight and are not corroded, if all is OK replace the harness, but leave the pod out for the moment.

Now if the op-amp is playing up then you would receive the symptoms that you now have, so I would recommend you replace the op-amp to begin with.
I would also recommend that you fit an IC socket so long as the op-amp is removed, this way you can swop the IC in the future without having to unsolder the connections. Both the IC (a 358) and the socket are cheap, so you don't have to worry about having deep pockets and short arms. ;D ;D

Before removing the IC make a note of the IC's location to ensure correct replacement. If possible try and cut the leads from the IC and remove the body, then you can remove the leads one by one and you need far less heat. If you are unable to cut the leads place a very small screwdriver under the IC to act as a lever, apply a little solder to your soldering iron and heat up the pads, and at the same time apply light pressure to the screwdriver. What ever happens don't apply too much heat or the pads will lift of the board, remove the IC step for step.

It would also be a good idea to mod the supply voltage to the IC as long as the board is out of the CB. As it stands it has a 12v supply, the problem is the 12v supply often has high voltage spikes that can destroy the the IC. This mod is recommended by the guys who designed the board.

I hope C5Mick also informed you not to seat D1 and R1 directly onto the board, but to leave a small air space to prevent burning the board.

One last point, to check continuity between X1 and X13 connect the multimeter and if you have no reading then swop the probes, as there is a diode in the circuit. This is to test the thermal cutout, but it much easier to remove the orange/orange connector from X6 and test the unit from the lead end of the connector. The whole thing is unnecessary as your motor kicked in at one point so the cutout is OK.

I'll post the IC voltage supply mod as soon as I find it.

Sow av phun.

KarlG

Offline KarlG

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Offline radiomarty

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Guy's for very little money you can buy a solder extractor which you hold over your soldering iron and it 'sucks out' the solder - I will post a link when I have chance - I also recommend a temp controlled soldering iron which will limit board damage


http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=171532429012&alt=web
« Last Edit: 02, February, 2015 - 14:42:20 by radiomarty »

Offline mr-c5

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Hi again,
I had a quick read but been doing the motor tonight. Took it off and separated it. Bushes were bit stuck in housings, age and spiders webs. I got them free and working. Noticed some of the the armature stack teeth have some grooving, well trenches really! Anyway put it back together and it now runs. So that's raised a smile.

Battery is okay as it has run the other C5. It's only a small 24ah 12V but carries almost 13v when charged and is sitting at 12.85v just now having run the motor a minute or so stop starting it and been used testing things this last week or so. I mentioned I fitted the pod onto my known working C5 and that seems okay. The pod end red cables pins don't appear corroded but that is I know a tricky one to see/call.

Did I mention the left bank of lights (motor ones) all flash on then off repeatedly except the end two amber ones which stay on which is'nt right, on the good C5 just the amber ones illuminate which I believe is normal. I said the right hand side led's extinguish over the period of a minute and the buzzer goes off, they all re-illuminate after that and start extinguishing again but no buzzer, this cycles. Doesn't happen when pods on the other C5. When I press the button nothing happens, no relay click, so no motor and no pod light change.

I know I tested the relay clicks in isolation and I said the motor flashed momentarily once but does this relay have a diode in it? Could that be a factor if it's gone? I'm unsure what the op-amp is but happy to get a desolder pump (used to have one many years ago)

C5mick was very kind & generous sending me resistors and diodes and yes I did raise the items I fitted off the boards surface. Really pleased to receive everyone's help btw it's appreciated!

Mark


Offline KarlG

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Hi Mark,

so we have eliminated the battery, harness and ULA, this leaves the co-amp. As I mentioned that if the op-amp is not dead but just about ready to meet it's creator, it can cause spurious signals. This will cause the ULA to react the way it is at the moment. With the relay located at the bottom of the board you will see a small black rectangular object located just above the relay, this is the op-amp its marked IC2.

Could you please conduct one more test before you go any further. With everything connected, including battery, test over a period of about 1 minute the voltage between pin 1 on connector X9 and X1. You should have a steady 5v.

Connector X9 is the small one located on the upper left hand side, pin 1 is located on the right hand side (inner side) of the connector, and X1 is the stud located on the top left hand side.

I'm more than a bit shot at the moment, I arose at 4am and its now almost 12:30 (CET) so I'm not thinking very straight to say the least.

I'll read the rest of your post later today.

OK ole.

Karl.

Offline mr-c5

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Hi Karl,
voltage was 5.02v with no change over a period of a couple minutes.
Off to bed now as it's gone midnight
Many thanks
Mark

Offline KarlG

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Hi Mark,

so it looks like the op-amp is the main suspect at the moment.

Karl.

Offline mr-c5

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Okay Karl so can anything on it be tested? Think Mick sent me one of those with it's own socket.
Are you in Germany? Just looked at your profile.
Mark

Offline radiomarty

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Hi Mark - to test it properly you need an oscilloscope so I would change as the chances are this is what's causing your flashing motor load display - Marty

Offline mr-c5

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Ok thanks, I think Mick sent me one, will check later. I ordered a desolder pump last night so when that arrives I can proceed. Would it prevent the relay switching too?
Mark

Offline radiomarty

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Yes this can prevent the relay activating - Its making the Ula believe there is a overheat condition of the motor and shuttingvit down -Marty

Ps check you have the two sensors from the motor on the correct pins as this will give this error - orange sensor to the middpe two pins.
« Last Edit: 03, February, 2015 - 14:14:16 by radiomarty »

Offline KarlG

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Hi Mark,

yeh, been here for almost 43 years now. I wasn't going to stay, I had intentions of going to a nice warm place, but got tied down. Left the UK to get away from the unions, never been a member, and never will be. :) :)
Quote
X1 to X13 no continuity
Quote
One last point, to check continuity between X1 and X13 connect the multimeter and if you have no reading then swop the probes, as there is a diode in the circuit.
Quote
I know I tested the relay clicks in isolation and I said the motor flashed momentarily once but does this relay have a diode in it? Could that be a factor if it's gone?
No there is no diode in the relay, but there is a diode (ZD1) in the circuit (on the board) that you were testing.
« Last Edit: 03, February, 2015 - 15:27:52 by KarlG »

Offline mr-c5

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Interesting! It was late last night when I did some last tests and I was swapping the probes around when testing because it was working one way and not the other, I'd had to repair a probe the other day as it broke internally and was confusing the heck out of me, so wasn't sure if it was the probe or me over tired or the board! I'll check that again but probably much later as busy this evening.

Is there a C5 scene in Germany or are you just considered an eccentric Brit abroad!

Mark