C5ALIVE Forum
C5 Help => C5 Support => Topic started by: mike7201 on 14, October, 2009 - 19:47:01
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:'( Something terrible has happened!
I accidentally (yeah yeah), rode off a high kerb this evening and I've somehow ruined my C5!
Please could someone help me? Out of desparation, and for some emergency re-assurance I'd be willing to hear from anyone who may be able to help.
After parking on the pavement outside a shop, I rode off this evening onto the road via a steep kerb. I wasn't aware it was about 6 or 7 inches high, and not only did I scrape the underneath, I also came down at the back with a mighty bang (the bang being the weight of the vehicle, not a mechanical bang!) :'(
I pedalled for a bit, then applied power. At that moment, I heard the loudest grinding sound you could ever imagine!
I turned the C5 on its side, only to remind myself that the battery was still connected, so there's now some kind of fluid on the footwell. Is this acid or just water????
Have I damaged the gearbox? It sounds like I've certainly done something, and I'm terrified it's going to be expensive to fix!!
I peddaled some more, then began to pick up speed. I tried the motor again, and it worked! As son as I slowed down and the motor needed to work harder, the grinding sound came back....
Please - sorry to sound desperate (and pathetic), but I do love my C5, and fear I may have ruined it.
I only ask as if I continue riding it as it is, it may get worse!!
Hope to hear from someone soon.
Thanks guys.
Mike
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Don't worry. It sounds like the motor has dropped behinds the fence, what your hearing is belt slip.
You need to loosen the motor, draw it back then forward, making sure the gearbox is sitting on and not behind the plastic strip. This strip is called the fence and is part of the plastic mount which hold the motor to the frame.
Once this is done, you may need to use the motor mod bracket or a cable tie threaded over the fence and though the gaps of the White motor front end ( assuming you have whie finger motor) and the motor body. This in effect stilt the fence bending forward causing the motor to drop down at the gearbox end. Loosening the belt drive.
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I would like to add that the gearbox acts as an eccentric cam, and twisting the motor anticlockwise (from brushes end) will tighten the belt. A lot of pressure is on the thin plastic fence. This is a common problem. Don't worry.
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Make sure you wash out that fluid - if it is acid then it will eat the plastic shell, plus you may need to top up the battery.
Might be worth posting some piccies of the c5 to see if the chassis survived without bending......"Dave" suffered a smilar fate :(
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Thanks so much... I'll be sure to take a look, and when it's light I'll try and take some pictures. I won't have a clue if the chassis is bent or not. Will you know from looking at pictures?
I'll try my best at Umpa's suggestion. Umpa, do you have any pictures that I could refer to so I know what I'm doing? I don't know what the 'fance' is. Do you really think the deafening grinding is what you say it is? I only ask as it's not a gentle clicking, it sounds like I put pebbles in a food blender!!
Forgive me, I'm not by any means questioning your expertise, but just didn't realise that a belt could make such horrible sounds! I'm just keen to make sure I have explained the severety of the noise. It really is terribly loud.
Thanks again Umpa. I really appreciate it.
Boo Boo, how do I know if it's acid or water? It leaked out of the screw caps where they have ventillation holes. Could that just be water?
I checked the footwells, and they're dry thank heaven's!
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If it's come out of the battery them I'd assume the worst and assume it is acid.
Check the buyers guide, scroll down for piccies of chassis damage
http://c5alive.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=429.0
The "fence" that umpa refers to is the thin plastic "wall" that supports the gearbox. The black bracket in the picture below is holding it in place;
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i257/1stbooboo/rearwheelassembly003.jpg)
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Well - as you pedaled and the motor worked OK it suggests a lose belt. I did think about a bent chassis, but as I have done the same thing as you I think its just the motor fence. I did not want to alarm you either. No one wants a bent frame !!
As for the acid - I would bet money that it is, I don't know enough to advise on it eating polypropylene - my gut feeling is that the plastic will be OK but I just don't know for sure. I good rinse with the hose pipe would be a good idea.
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Nice piccy Karl, I was at work on the iphone and its a real pain tying to post pics.
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Thanks so much. I understand a little better now.
I've just tried to have a look.
It's too dark & late outside really to see at this moment, and now I've knocked off my other wing mirror in the process of having a look! Now that's no wing mirrors I have! No fear though, they're in my 'boot' ready for re-fitting.
It's just not my night tonight. :-[
I know from seeing the motor the other day that it's a 'white finger' model, so hopefully I'll be able to follow the instructions.
I'm a kinesthetic learner, so learn better through being shown or 'talked through it'. Then, when I've done something once, I am usually confident to do it again alone. Hopefully by looking at these images and through the guidance of you legends, I should be ok to resolve as advised. However, I hope it's ok to post again if I have any problems?
Thanks again.
Much appreciated.
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Oh, forgot to mention. I did text C5Martin to ask for his input too, but that was before you guys replied within minutes of me posting on the forum. I think i was just so worried, I wanted to clarify what had happened.
After having looked at the images Karl re-directed me to, I can say I don't appear to have a bent chassis, as the rear wheels appear just as they always have. So, I suppose that's some comfort.
Here's hoping when I come home from work tomorrow I'll be able to fix it.
Cheers,
Mike
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As for the acid - I would bet money that it is, I don't know enough to advise on it eating polypropylene - my gut feeling is that the plastic will be OK but I just don't know for sure. I good rinse with the hose pipe would be a good idea.
Well, I got it all over my hands whatever it was, and it came out of the same holes that you pour distilled water into. So, if it's acid, I have no marks on me (at the present time), nor is there any scent to it. I don't know whether acid smells or not, but I haven't suffered any burns or marks, and netiher has my worktop that I placed the battery on as I wiped it dry.
Perhaps I'll not charge it tonight, just to be safe!
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yes - if its a battery to have to top up then its sulphuric acid. your going to have to look to see if the plates are exposed to the air, if they are its a good idea to take the battery to a garage and have it topped up with acid. If you simply fill it with water you will dilute the acid.
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Ok, here goes... What do you make of these images? I can't for the life of me see any problems. Can you??? I should point out that the belt was tight as my wallet! Trust me, you can't get tighter than that!
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz58/mike7201/S2300037.jpg)
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz58/mike7201/S2300036.jpg)
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz58/mike7201/S2300035.jpg)
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz58/mike7201/S2300034.jpg)
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz58/mike7201/S2300033.jpg)
I don't really know what to do from here. Sorry to be a pain.
Oh, in the process of parking it and applying the parking break, the brake cable snapped at the lever!
Anyone want to buy a C5???
:'(
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Nice pics, but sadly I can't see the important bit. What were looking for is the bottom of the brown gearbox to be sat on the White plastic fence. It's behinds the big White drive cog. The belt will seem tight even if it's not tight e nough.
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Oh, so I need to remove the white wheel which the belt goes round is that right?
I saw that there's a checkered piece of white plastic. A piece with square holes and I think the motor is sat on this. Would this be what you need to see?
Sorry for my amateurism.
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Hey don't worry, your talking to a bloke that put the rear wheel on wrong !!!
you should see it, i'll take a photo of mine tomorrow and post it on here for you.
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Top man. I will try and locate what you show me.
Thanks.
Now, how to repair the brake handle? I pulled the parking brake in the usual way, but it disconnected from the handle. Has the cable simply snapped or disconnected I wonder.
Blimey, if it's not one thing it's another!
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Lol that happened to me to !!
In my case the cable snapped from the end piece that fits in the handle. If you take the complete cable - inner and outer to a bike shop they will sort you out.
Unless Karl sells them from the shop of course as they will be the correct length, and you will be supporting the club.
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Brake cables are always the one thing we all seem to neglect - probably coz they seem to last forever , but when they snap it can have quite serious consequences (as the Welsh run proved April 08 :o)
Replacement sets of brake cables are available on the shop side of the site ;
http://c5alive.co.uk/ecommerce/product_info.php?cPath=19&products_id=78&osCsid=9b7f76644ba162a90be6fa6d4f26d137
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Right... Please tell me these are the photos which will show you what you need to see???
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz58/mike7201/S2300039.jpg)
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz58/mike7201/S2300040.jpg)
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz58/mike7201/S2300041.jpg)
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz58/mike7201/S2300042.jpg)
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz58/mike7201/S2300043.jpg)
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz58/mike7201/S2300044.jpg)
I noticed that when I powered up under no strain, there were no issues. With the wheel off it was fine. With the wheel on and the C5 propped up, the wheel turned with ease. When the wheel touched the floor, the grinding started. I felt the belt afterwards and it was quite warm. Hmmm...
What now guys?
Karl, I will purchase the C5Alive cables, but do they come with instructions for the stupid, as I am so useless, I'll need all the help I can get when it comes to fixing...!
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Hi not sure if i'm seeing things here but is the tyre on the rim ?
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Haven't a clue. Is it??
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Sorry for not posting the pictures, but I had visitors this morning. Non of your pictures show what I need to see.
So far the only one that shows it is Karls picture. In it you can see a black metal strip just in front of the motor. This is the motor mod bracket and sits infront of the fence and keeps it under the gearbox.
What you say about it working ok with no weight on the wheel is true of belt slip. I promise I will post you pics of mine tomorrow as I have to regrease my gearbox.
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Thanks Umpa, if you could, I'd be grateful. It's a bit of a hassle having to take the wheel off every time to just take the wrong pictures. Thanks.
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Hold on a minute... Are you wanting pictures with the huge cog wheel removed, thus having the belt attached to 'nothing'?
If so, how do I do that? Will it just 'pull off'? Don't want to break that too!!
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Hey,
my post is gone ! I did a description what he should do- remove the wheel, then pull the large cog, and see that the "fence" keeping the gearbox upwards has snapped in front of it. It should be UNDER it: See picture 3, you can see it there.
Then, re-bend the metal long "thing" to keep it in place.
Very difficult to describe when things have no names- I am missing the words...
Carsten
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What you say about it working ok with no weight on the wheel is true of belt slip. I promise I will post you pics of mine tomorrow as I have to regrease my gearbox.
Hi Umpa, any idea when I may be able to see??
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Here you are m8, this is a motor housing I have off the c5, I got made to do the shopping this morning :(
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t203/Umpa_EG/Sinclair%20C5/Fence.jpg)
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t203/Umpa_EG/Sinclair%20C5/f32611fa.jpg)
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t203/Umpa_EG/Sinclair%20C5/1a3687ca.jpg)
Remember the gearbox sits on the fence and not behind it.
Yes you need to pull off the white drive gear behind the wheel, after you loosen the drivebelt it just slides forward.
Heres a good pic, it clearly shows the gearbox sitting on the fence. The black metal strip is a mod you could buy from the shop at one time.
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t203/Umpa_EG/Sinclair%20C5/IMG_0405.jpg)
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Umpa,
that's it. See his Pic 3, there you can see the snapped fence.
Now, what we can also solve the same is to check that the large cog has no axial play. When the wheel is loose, take of the metal part inside it, and refit it on the stub axle. NOW, keep it held down with the left hand, and move up/ down the white cog. IF it moves, look on the axle after taking it of. There are shims with which you adjust the free play. Grease this area, and if shims are missing, get some to adjust play to almost zero.
Reason is that IF there's play the white large cog can and will wander on the stub, thus the belt runs at angles, and the belt will not sit nicely on the small cog due to the angle it has to live with, then. I could not find the original 15 mm inner diameter shims so I got a 16 mm one, and lucky me it did the trick. I now have one thin original shim on top, all is fine.
Carsten
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Yes the piccy shows the fence bent forward, I see it now. Its not snapped and an easy fix.
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Top spot guy's I missed that completely - I take it it's a matter of loosening the motor and repositioning flush to the fence.
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Umpa, thanks for the images. I completely understand now. I have removed the huge cog wheel, and can see that the fence has come slightly forward. It flexes quite well luckily, and it easily bends back under the gearbox, yet simply pops out again though! Would this mean that when the belt is attached, it pulls the gearbox downwards causing the noise I told you of??
If so, would the mod bracket 'hold the fence under the gearbox'? Would having the fence under the gearbox with the modified bracket actually solve the problem? I don't want to buy something I don't need, that's all.
Thanks. I really appreciate your support.
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YOU CAN GET THE SAME RESULT WITH A LARGE STRONG CABLE TIE.
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I just noticed there aren't any brackets on the shop at this time.
How would I apply a cable tie then? I can't see how I can hold the fence back so it sits under the gearbox.
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I've just put the wheel back on, and it's over-hanging the wheel arch. It won't go in as far as it did before. What's happened now?
Aaaargh! Two wing mirrors knocked off, brake cable snapped, motor fence broken now this!!
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Calm down !!
These are all easy fixes
1) you need to push the metal pipe (that the gear fits on) fully into the housing, you may need to waggle it a bit.
2) I explained the cable tie fix in the second post of this thread !!
3) All you need to do is refit the mirrors.
4) Fence is not broken - just a little bent, the cable tie fix will cure this.
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Sorry Umpa, I just find it all a little delicate sometimes!
Push the metal pipe?
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Sorry Umpa, I just find it all a little delicate sometimes!
Push the metal pipe?
...check the piccies in this link ;
http://c5alive.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=342.0
...you'll see the "pipe" Umpa is referring to :)
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That's the one - (holds head in embarrassment) The very last picture in the tread shows the 'Pipe', the drive wheel's bearing clutch drives the C5 with this. The pipe has splines on which it turns the axel. If this is not fully pushed in to the mounting it will stick out a little to far. When you tighten up the wheel nut, it should help push the pipe in, but we don’t want to strip the threads in the axel though do we ? - so its best if you push it in most of the way by hand.
You would only have about 3 mm of pipe sticking out of the drive cog when fitted.
Keep at it your nearly there, also dont forget to grease the drive bearing and wheel bearings !!!
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Should be sticking out about 3mm? Are you kidding? I'm lucky if I can get the pipe to go in far enough that it's less than a couple of inches showing. I've now got black stuff all over my hands and now you're telling me I have to grease something... Oh heck!
Now I've got one part too many left over and I've re-assembled it! :o
Having looked at Karl's images, I can see that the pipe sticks out just like mine, so perhaps it's ok. I can't figure out why the wheel won't go on all the way though... Hmm...
Oh, and I can't see how applying cable ties makes a difference in making the fence fit better... I'm not saying it won't work as clearly for some it does, I just can't see how it raises the motor.?
Thanks
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The fence keeps the motor up. Once the motor pulls on the belt, it effectively gets a bit down. Now there's the fence, or lip, keeping it up where it is.
The pipe really goes back deep in when you wiggle a bit on the stub axle. It just slides an inch or so deeper.
Then it protrudes by 3 or 4 mm. This is to be packed with spacers, so that the large cog can rotate free- but has no axial play (I'd say 1/10 is enough).
If it can move: Get washers / spacers to fill up.
Which part is leftover ? Make a pic.
Best to take a pic, put it here, and we'll tell ya what to do. Think, I never had a C5 2 weeks ago, I had a blown CB and a rattling noise from a snapping belt- I learned it in a few sessions and now all is fine. There is success - it's just there, behind that fence :-)
Carsten
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Thanks Carsten! I'll bare with it, and keep trying.
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I think it would still help to know how the cable ties help, and how/where to attach them.
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See the last picture on page TWO (2) of this thread.
Now, there's this metal bar in front of the fence.
What you want to achieve is that the fence is kept back under the motor/Gearbox.
So just sling it around the fence, fiddle it through behind / below the motor, so that if you tighthen it, it'll pull the fence back where it should be.
You might also buy / built the metal bar part, but I guess it's not worth bothering.
You write you're a light techie. Me too, a bit- not DALI- but mainly EIB/KNX 1-10V Systems. I plan large scale systems for larger buildings, including solar protection / presence detection etc to save energy, using EIB a lot.
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Mike,
Here are some picures of mine I took this morning while I serviced my gearbox.
This one shows how a cable tie works
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t203/Umpa_EG/Sinclair%20C5/d15dbc9a.jpg)
Side view
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t203/Umpa_EG/Sinclair%20C5/ae39a8ef.jpg)
How it fastens (I have to use two as they wer not long enough)
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t203/Umpa_EG/Sinclair%20C5/e6487ac7.jpg)
Another Side View
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t203/Umpa_EG/Sinclair%20C5/75c07340.jpg)
All finished - take a look at how much pipe I have sticking out
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t203/Umpa_EG/Sinclair%20C5/2c1dcc04.jpg)
By now and after re-reading the entire topic from the beginning you should be able to do this.
Good luck...
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Again, for continued patience and support I thank you! I'll try it.
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Hooray! I think I've done it...
Now. How to get the belt back on? I tried before adding the cable ties to secure the fence, and afterwards. The belt has absolutely no give, and it won't allow me to attach it to the gearbox.
What's wrong, and how can I attach it?
Please advise. Photos would help, although I hate to ask unless they're readily available.
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The belt is a tight fit so you will not be able to "stretch" it over both the gearbox and large cogs at the same time.
Everyone seems to develop their own method, I tend to fit the belt over the gearbox cog first, then feed the belt onto the large white cog whilst slowly rotating it.
It is physically difficult , and takes a few attempts to get the knack - but persevere and you'll get there 8)
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Thanks Karl, I'll try as you suggest. I did think about placing the belt in hot water to soften it a little to allow a more flexible approach. Should I grease it, or should it remain dry?
Talking of grease. Can I use WD40 on moving metal parts? If so, I'll be sure to spray everything I can.
Still can't get the wheel to go back flush with the arch like the other side. The pipe is now securely in leaving little metal showing to the eye. Everything else appears as it should.
I think once I get the brake cables, I should be good to go again.
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..Still can't get the wheel to go back flush with the arch like the other side.
That could be a concern, have you put the wheel on the right way round ? It shouldn't be standing proud of the wheel arch :-\
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Yep, it's definitely fitted the right way. I should point out that before I removed the wheel to take pictures days ago, it wasn't loose or sticking any further out than the other side.
Don't know what to do.
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Fitting the belt is not easy. You might have the motor twisted to far. Remember that you adjust the belt tension by turning the motor in the White plasic housing.
I fit mine by the big gear first, I pull the gear out so the inside is level with the little cogs outside, I line up the teath, and then rotate the gear to the left whilst pushing the gear in.
It takes a bit of practice, like Karl says there is more
than one way to do it, and it's very hard to start with.
You will get better at it - trust me lol.
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Maybe the metal part inside the wheel is wrong way up ?
Please, help US in helping you, and make some pictures of the sitution.
Belt: I feed it round the large coge, cause I can rotate it anticlockwise free, and then I put it on the small one. Then I rotate the large one with my right hand, the left hand thumb feeds the belt on the small one. Once it goes there completeley round for 2 mm depths I won. Just turn and turn the large one, see that it won't slip of the small one and you're done. Finally, after 10 turns you can see how it would run on the small one - I mean it's overlap / non-overlapping area. The non- o is to be MINIMAL, cause the belt will tear then where the borderline is. So you goal is to adjust, again, by washers'n spacers, the large wheel, so that the belt rides FULLY on the small one. If so, AND the gearbox is supported by the fence, and the belt has maximum tension, THEN it is 100%.
Carsten
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Sorry for the delay in replying. When I get home in the evenings at the moment it's dark, and my camera says that the light levels are too low to take pictures. Sure enough, even though I try, the results are fruitless to say the least.
This evening I had to do the grocery shopping, so I've been a bit slack at getting my C5 sorted. However, I have a few days off now so will try to update as soon as I can.
Thanks again.
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I did it!
Thanks so much for all your help and guidance, throughout what I thought was the end of my C5!
As requested, here's an image which shows the left rear (motor side) wheel which appears slightly further out than the one on the right. Having said this, I think it's better now, than it was last time.
What do you think?
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz58/mike7201/S2300001.jpg)
It doesn't let you see both wheels from the back of the C5, so perhaps I'll need to re-take the images.
Thanks again.
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I think Umpa and Karl did a fantastic job on this problem - It was good for us newbies to read as we were learning too !!!
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Hi Mike,
glad you did it, I see you have the usual teltail signs that the drive train has been off (black grease marks) lol
well done dude I knew you would Suss it.
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Thanks again...
Now for the two last things...
1. Replacing the new rear brake which arrived today.
2. Re-fit wing mirrors
I have a brake cable here for the rear brake. It's got a bare cable at one end, and a metal ball-type end at the other. I have managed to get the ball-type end into the handle, but need to know how to get it to stay put when I've attached the other end to the bolt.
Any ideas?
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I see you have the usual teltail signs that the drive train has been off (black grease marks) lol
Yep, it was reasonably clean before that. My God isn't it tricky to remove? I've tried so hard to keep my C5 clean, yet whenever I touch it, it's dirty!!
My hands have been black for days. Not completely, but whatever it is, is sticking to my fingers like super-glue, and isn't coming off no matter how often I wash my hands! It's fading slightly each day, but it don't half get on yer!
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Thanks again...
Now for the two last things...
1. Replacing the new rear brake which arrived today.
2. Re-fit wing mirrors
I have a brake cable here for the rear brake. It's got a bare cable at one end, and a metal ball-type end at the other. I have managed to get the ball-type end into the handle, but need to know how to get it to stay put when I've attached the other end to the bolt.
Any ideas?
Instructions for fitting the wing mirrors (courtesy of Roy Woodwards site) ;
http://www.sinclairc5.com/acc_inst/acc_inst_mirrors.htm
Fitting the brake cables is almost the same as for fitting to an ordinary bicycle.
For the rear brake, make sure the outer cable and ferrule is close to the brake lever
Feed the cable through to the adjuster that sits on the chassis near to the rear wheel. Push the inner cable through the adjuster and through the retaining bolt that sits on the end of the small lever. I always push the small lever towards the c5 until its almost at a right angle to the chassis. Pull the inner cable tight, then tighten up the retaining bolt. Squeeze the brake lever to take out the slack, loosen up the retaining bolt and pull the inner cable tight once more. Tighten the retaining bolt, trim off the excess inner cable and fit the lead end cap to stop the cable fraying.
Adjusting the rear brake so that the handbrake works and avoiding an annoying squeak as you go along can be a time consuming and frustrating experience. This is due to most of the rear brake drums being oval shaped, creating tight spots when trying to set up the rear brake correctly.
Usual trial and error that is part and parcel of c5 ownership :)
Do not be tempted to oil the rear brake to stop the squeaking !!
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Thanks matey.
I found the cable sleeving a tad long and it rubbed against the chain, so I used a cable tie to gently hold it closer to the chassis.
I'll attempt the mirrors as soon as I can.
I noticed today from testing the C5 that it works perfectly now I have adjusted the 'fence'!
Braking worked too, although I had to squeeze it tight to get any response. I'll do as you suggested, and run a few trials to see which works best. It's managing to get a good responsive brake, yet still being able to apply it far enough to activate the parking brake.
It was good to ride it agian though today.
Thanks for your continued support.
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The brake cables are the correct length, so you might have routed the cable through the chassis differently.
Either way they always need securing with cable ties, as you have done. ;)
Nice to see you back up and running. 8)