Hi folks,
I have just joined the community of proud C5 owners: Bought my first C5 back in February this year and successfully restored it. Photos will be posted here very soon. :o)
As I am still a bloody beginner, I just bought the first 35Ah car starter battery in a local store - just to get things going!
When it is fully charged, it has a voltage of around 13.5 volt - the motor works perfectly and the speed without pedaling is at around 20 km/h.
After around 15kms with pedal support at hills and at the driveaway, the voltage has dropped to 12.37 volts.
The motor support is now very week and without pedaling the C5 goes with walking speed (6km/h or so).
Another day, the voltage dropped below 12V (11.9 if I remember correctly) and the motor wasn't able to turn the wheels anymore.
Now my question: Do you share this experience? Does it happen because the voltage is too low? Or would the motor operate properly at "just" 12V if the battery delivered enough amps? As far as I know, a 12V car battery can be discharged down to a voltage of 10.5 volts...
http://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-40Ah-100Ah/
What do you think about these ones? Should I give them a try? I'd use four of them with an appropriate BMS/balancers.
What capacity would you suggest me? On long day tours with my "normal" bike, I use to make 70-100km per day. If my C5 made 70 kms without recharging, it would be perfect when starting after breakfast on a sunny sunday and coming back for a late dinner. :) Any suggestions and ideas?
Thanks in advance,
Jörg
Hi Joerg
Welcome to the forum - I'm afraid I'm not very technical so can't answer your questions.
However this is the battery I use and find really good http://c5alive.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2144.0.html
Lots of advice in here http://c5alive.co.uk/forum/index.php/board,13.0.html
And faults and solutions here http://c5alive.co.uk/forum/index.php/board,6.0.html
Good luck and I'm sure some of the guys who know what they are talking about will be here soon...
Hi Joerg - Welcome aboard - as far AS i can see you are getting around 10 miles out of your battery. The discharge rate and readings I think are quite normal for this battery - increasing the amps hours will improve your range slightly but not dramatically. I have no experience of the lifepo4 batteries but I understand that they are superior and very good.I think someone one here has used them and had a very good range but maybe not the range you are hoping for ! - I am sure someone will be along soon that can advise you on these type of batteries- regards Marty
Hi and welcome to c5alive
I agree with Marty, it sounds as though the range you're getting from the lead acid battery is on a par with what we would expect.
Very few seem to go down the lithium route mainly due to increased cost and complexity - especially as most of us tend to use our c5's for weekend events etc and seldom go for the range you are looking to get. For low usage lead acid are the best cost option.
If you do go for lithium please let us know how you get on.
Hey,
thanks a lot for the fast answers.
I am basically using my C5 every day - for short tours through the country side, for shopping or just for the fun of riding this vehicle :)
Sure, if the C5 is more a collector's item that is only used on special occasions, it's not worth thinking about lithium at all. But I recharge my battery every night....and somehow I have got the feeling that it will be dead before christmas :)
As far as the specs say, a lithium battery has 3000-5000 cycles, while a lead acid battery has 300-500...
So, if I got everything right: For the price of four lead acid batteries, I'll get one lithium that gives me the fun of ten lead acid ones :D
But currently, I am working on two smaller projects: Replacing the original chain tensioner and making a new seat cushon!
I'll keep you updated.
Thanks,
Jörg
Some lead batteries come with a warrantee of several years - mine is about 3 or 4.
So if you do manage to wear it down then you might be able to get it replaced for free.
Not sure how easy this is in reality.
Quote from: thedesigntailor on 23, April, 2012 - 12:53:00
Some lead batteries come with a warrantee of several years - mine is about 3 or 4.
So if you do manage to wear it down then you might be able to get it replaced for free.
Not sure how easy this is in reality.
I'm using lead acid car batteries and my C5 does 300+ miles/month.
The range on them starts dropping after about 400 miles and I have been to replace one under warranty but this made me feel bad as they weren't supposed to be used in a C5 and the guy in the shop will probably be stuck with them if the factory doesn't accept them back so I will be looking into mobility scooter/lithium batteries in the near future.
Hey guys,
I have news for you: Just ordered a winston LiFePo4 60Ah 12V battery pack.
http://www.ev-power.eu/LiFeYPO4-batteries-12V-1-1/Lithium-Battery-12V-60Ah-WB-LP12V60AH.html (http://www.ev-power.eu/LiFeYPO4-batteries-12V-1-1/Lithium-Battery-12V-60Ah-WB-LP12V60AH.html)
Even though it ruins my small student's budget for now, I hope it will save me a lot of money in the long run.
At the moment, I unfortunately have a gearbox problem (see my other thread), but I might test the battery in some other C5 first and share my experience with you. :o)
Jörg
Hi and welcome to the forum.
Be careful to get the right charger as they are different for lithium batteries to lead acid ones.....................
Lance
Quote from: joerg on 28, May, 2012 - 18:15:51
Hey guys,
I have news for you: Just ordered a winston LiFePo4 60Ah 12V battery pack.
http://www.ev-power.eu/LiFeYPO4-batteries-12V-1-1/Lithium-Battery-12V-60Ah-WB-LP12V60AH.html (http://www.ev-power.eu/LiFeYPO4-batteries-12V-1-1/Lithium-Battery-12V-60Ah-WB-LP12V60AH.html)
Even though it ruins my small student's budget for now, I hope it will save me a lot of money in the long run.
At the moment, I unfortunately have a gearbox problem (see my other thread), but I might test the battery in some other C5 first and share my experience with you. :o)
Jörg
Hi there. You need to check if it has a built in BMS or LV cut out. If not you will need to buy a separate monitor. I have used these Thundersky cells from the US and had problems with balance , thats why I now use Ping or Heinzmann for all ebikes. You will do irreversible damage if you go low volt, usually by 3v on any cell. Also these LiFeYPo4 are pretty new ( dont confuse with Lifepo4 ) and unsure of standing with the life Yttrium cells, sometimes for the C5, just having a good budget battery as Booboo said is the long term cheaper option.
Hi...
thanks for the hint! The C5 that will be powered by the LiFeYPo4 cells doesn't have any electronics anymore, the control box board was burned down when I got it. I'm trying to build it up from scratch now with an ATmega micro controller and a SyRen 50A PWM motor driver. The SyRen board has a lithium cut off at 3.0 V per cell, so that should all be fine.
The 12V LiFeYPo4 battery block has no BMS. The charger should be OK, I emailed the dealer (a marine shop in berlin) to make sure I get the correct one.
Jörg
If the battery has no BMS then how can the controller detect each cell before 3v, the pack will push out 4 cells unbalanced , i.e. (peak cell 3.2 ) 3.2 + 3.2 + 3.1 + 2.6 = 12.1v (controller doesn't pic up fault if no controller line ) = knackered , this just from my past experience and others. If the retailer says OK then good. just check the warranty. can you put pics up of the project as you go. Nice to see more project posted. thanks m
Hi marra,
hmm, I asked the dealer twice about balancers...because that was my concern as well.
He said that I don't need them because the 12V packs contain "pre-selected" cells.
The controller will just cut off at 4*3 V = 12 V - so as you say...no single cell monitoring.
Jörg
Pre-selected cells also known as Matched cells, all lipoly battery builders do it ( apart from HK power + V power as same company) . From what I know as the cells soften with every use ( usually by 20 discharges ) they become mismatched from one and other. I am not going to start putting down the retailer/dealer due to the numbers they sell and their experience , but in mine and others the built in BMS and balancing charger also such as Ping ( and others, I think Turnigy are also doing high amp 12v now) batteries are far better. If you have been given the OK and there is a good warranty then thats something. Keep us up to date with the project. m
Hi marra,
well, we will see. It's a bit hard to talk about these things if you haven't tried it. I basically see the point that the cells should be balanced and asked the dealer about it. For me, the C5 is a hobby project - other guys restore old cars, thats even more expensive than giving these batteries a try. :)
Can you give me some information about the batteries you are using? What capacities, models, where to buy etc.
Have u tried one of these LiFe(Y)Po4 in the C5 already or are you just sharing your experience with ebikes?
Jörg
hi J. I have used Lifepo4 in a few C5's and there are 5 people in the north west that use these batteries also, the run is up and down Blackpool front from st,annes to cleveleys return, about 30 mile and the batteries that are 30ah ( 60ah continuous ) still have a good ah left in them. The chemistry is very good in Lifepo4 and with the C rate and they are not effected by the peukert effect as lead acid batteries.
The best for the C5 are Ping :
http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/StoreFront . includes the charger with the batteries. Lie Ping can make any size ah and the dimensions you want, very good after sales and warranty. the BMs systems are by far the best of battery manufacturers to my knowledge other than Heinzmann. They are BMZ of Germany and also incorporate LVC over amp draw and heat protection and long standing state balance, but at £540 each a little high but you get what you paid for and 3 years no quibble warranty a good purchase. The german postal service use these and are on many richshaws . If the C5 is just a play hobby I still stand to say a lead acid is better unless you plan to use the C5 daily to commute . I may not have the best knowledge with the C5, very little to some on here , but with ebikes I do know my stuff. There will probably be others on this forum that could advise you on whats best for the C5 and value for annual running costs than my recomendation. I would certainly avoid any lipo/feY4/po4 battery without any BMS.
The other point to make is your earlier post regarding cycles of the lithium battery. dont believe all as its stated unless you know all the ins and outs, such as a BMS system fitted the correct storage, the correct time to charge. you never store one fully charged, when do you put it in the fridge , yes the fridge ! the most likely cycles are 1000 85% . 3000 under 70%, these are if you know what you are doing.
I think Kamil is the one who uses his on a daily basis and would tell you what is best in Lead acid/gell type battery and their value on an annual basis. may be others who commute also. thanks m
Hi marra,
thanks for the valuable information. The ping batteries look really promising. Concerning the fact that they give you a charger for free, it's not that much more expensive than the winston pack. I have found out from another german winston dealer that these blocks are not really intended in cycle usage, but just as a replacement for a lead acid car starter battery.
So it might be a better idea to send it back and get my money back.
As far as I can see the ping guys don't have any 12V batteries....did you just contact them to make you a custom battery pack? Or are u using a 24V conversion?
Thanks,
Jörg
Hi J. Ping can make any battery you want. the 12v 30 ah is the same as 24v 15ah ( there abouts ) The 12v is 4 cell, 24v 8 cell. he has made loads of 12v packs. Like to add, mr ping is no one man job in his back shed, just google Ping batteries and see all the threads of his products, very good and very big. I hope you can/do get a refund as I really do believe you were going down the wrong route on that pack. thanks m
**To add **
Regarding the cost a little more but getting a charger, you are also getting a very good BMS for protection. The LED status balancing function that it incorporates is very superior to most and I mean most on the market. Also the charger can shut on and off to aid in balancing.
Hi marra,
I'll definitely get a refund. In Germany (maybe this is even valid for the whole EU), there's a law that protects consumers who buy stuff through distance selling: You have the right to send the stuff back to the dealer without giving any reasons and get a full refund in the first 31 days after purchase. The dealer is even required to pay the postage for the returning package.
Oh and btw.: The C5 was made for lead acid 12V batteries which can usually be discharged until the voltage drops to 10.5V. I guess the BMS of the ping batteries takes care of this, doesn't it? It should cut off at 12V (3V per cell), shouldn't it?
Thanks,
Jörg
Yes they have LVC in the BMS. The pod lights will just stay on full bars as the pack has hardly no curve, so unless you use a battery status meter that has ah capacity you will just run until it cuts off. m